[genny]

On our plan to read through the Bible this year, today we read Hebrews 9 and 10.  I was struck by several verses that speak directly to what the wmscog teaches, and just had to share them…

Hebrews 9:13-14

13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.  14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Doesn't the wmscog teach that 'mother god' is the heifer that is sacrificed to make the people clean on Tuesday and Saturday?  But Hebrews says that the ashes of the heifer only make a person "outwardly clean."  There is no true, inner cleansing with the heifer.

Hebrews 9:25-26

25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.  26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Doesn't the wmscog teach that 'mother' sacrifices herself again and again, every week for the sins of her 'children'?  But Hebrews says that only one sacrifice for sin was needed.  Jesus did n't have to 'offer himself again and again' so 'mother's' sacrifice must be inferior.

Hebrews 10:1-2

1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.  2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

Here it is again.  If 'mother's' sacrifice could 'make perfect those who draw near to worship,' why does she have to repeatedly offer herself week after week?  That's a poor sacrifice!

Hebrews 10:12,14

12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, … 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Jesus did it all in one sacrifice–no need for any other!

[Smurf]

[Smurf]

They say once and for all means for everybody. Not permanently.

Since we're on the topic, could you explain the meaning behind the Sabbath-rest in Heb 4. This could easily be twisted into an obligation to keep the Sabbathday.

 

[Simon]

Hebrews 9:13-14 is a physical heifer and Zhang is a spiritual heifer soooo its different 😉

[genny]

fried rice wrote:

They say once and for all means for everybody. Not permanently.

Since we're on the topic, could you explain the meaning behind the Sabbath-rest in Heb 4. This could easily be twisted into an obligation to keep the Sabbathday.

Yeah, you might be able to twist the English words so once for all means everybody, but that's not the meaning of the Greek words.  And the context of Heb. 9 and 10 makes it pretty clear it means one time.  (Like Heb. 10:12,14)

As for Hebrews 4:9-10, here's what some Bible commentaries say about it:

Coffman (http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?bk=heb&ch=4&vs=9#9)

This verse also has its application to Christ. He did indeed finish the work of his earthly ministry and enter into that eternal rest to which his followers are invited to come. All who will receive it are invited; and Christ, as representative man, has already entered upon the rest, or into it. The recurring and overwhelming thought of that "rest" so much discussed here is the eternal nature and purity of it, utterly distinguishing it from Canaan, or earthly sabbaths, which even at best were dim and imperfect symbols of a genuine reality, the rest of God. That rest is inherent in the very nature of God, who himself rested on the seventh day of creation, and who surely purposed that his people should share in it, that sharing being made possible only through the sacrifice of Christ.

Clark (http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?bk=heb&ch=4&vs=9#9)

It was not 1.The rest of the Sabbath; it was not, 2.The rest in the promised land,

for the psalmist wrote long after the days of Joshua; therefore there is another rest, a state of blessedness, for the people of God; and this is the Gospel, the blessings it procures and communicates, and the eternal glory which it prepares for, and has promised to, genuine believers.

There are two words in this chapter which we indifferently translate rest, καταπαυσις and σαββατισμος· he first signifying a cessation from labor, so that the weary body is rested and refreshed; the second meaning, not only a rest from labor, but a religious rest; (sabbatismus), a rest of a sacred kind, of which both soul and body partake. This is true, whether we understand the rest as referring to Gospel blessings, or to eternal felicity, or to both.

The man who has believed in Christ Jesus has entered into his rest; the state of happiness which he has provided, and which is the forerunner of eternal glory.

No longer depends on the observance of Mosaic rites and ceremonies for his justification and final happiness. He rests from all these works of the law as fully as God has rested from his works of creation.

Those who restrain the word rest to the signification of eternal glory, say, that ceasing from our own works relates to the sufferings, tribulations, afflictions, etc., of this life; as in Revelation 14:13. I understand it as including both.

In speaking of the Sabbath, as typifying a state of blessedness in the other world, the apostle follows the opinions of the Jews of his own and after times. The phrase שבת עלאה ושבת התאה (shabbath illaah), (veshabbath tethaah), the sabbath above, and the sabbath below, is common among the Jewish writers; and they think that where the plural number is used, as in Leviticus 19:30: Ye shall keep my Sabbaths, that the lower and higher sabbaths are intended, and that the one is prefigured by the other. See many examples in Schoettgen.

[genny]

Simon wrote:

Hebrews 9:13-14 is a physical heifer and Zhang is a spiritual heifer soooo its different 😉

😉  So she can make you outwardly spiritually clean?  So you look spiritually clean on the outside but you're not spiritually clean on the inside.  Yes, that might fit.

[Smurf]

Simon wrote:

Hebrews 9:13-14 is a physical heifer and Zhang is a spiritual heifer soooo its different 😉

hehe, that's always a bit tricky. They like to juggle between physical/ spiritual a lot.

And the know no boundaries. This is a comment from a member:

"What does Rom 6:9 say? 'He cannot die again!' It was only after He what that He cannot die again? After He resurrected!

After Jesus resurrected He will live eternally in the Spiritual form.

In the flesh He can die! And He did die but Spiritually He cannot die again.

However the Bible prophesies the Second Coming Christ will come in the flesh, to fulfill prophecy.

After He fulfills prophecy what will happen, He too must pass away.

Read in context!"

 

Sooo according to the wms Jesus can now die SPIRITUALLY.

Lord have mercy…

[emil]

fried rice wrote:

They say once and for all means for everybody. Not permanently.

Since we're on the topic, could you explain the meaning behind the Sabbath-rest in Heb 4. This could easily be twisted into an obligation to keep the Sabbathday.

I think Heb 4:7-8 makes it pretty clear that the author of Hebrews is not advocating the original sabbath day at all.