Serious questions!??

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    Topic
  • #8000
    WarriorQueen
    Participant

    Is there seriously no question that could’ve been asked or could be asked that would have made you think outside of the hold the cog has on members!? Or just none no one will admit to while in that hold!?

    Is there important questions you think of now, being an ex member that you wish someone would of asked or said to you!?

    It’s REAL to them there.. I know!!

    But I just thought about this..

    They claim the way the bible says the second coming would happen isn’t the way it (did).. Or the way the bible says the world will end isn’t as it will!! Of course their interpretation is off… But if that’s so then where in the bible tells them there will be a third coming!?! Or where does it tell them how the end will actually happen!? Or how mother will not die.. or how that whole thing will go down!!? These are legitimate questions I have that my husband refuses to answer unless I go to zion and study!!!

    Give me questions!?!

    Great ones that would blow their minds (because a nonmember actually asked) and have them slippin (in front of hubs)!!! So if I decide to go I’m prepared to “try and stump” somebody!!

    Seriously.. Questions they will avoid.. Questions they refuse to answer or touch on in the beginning of studies.. Questions you would of asked if you known to ask them in the beginning.. Anything you believe is of importance or even something considered insignificantly minute! Thank y’all so much for y’alls time and knowledge.. It means the world to me!!

    Btw… Sorry if this seems completely pointless to try or I sound dumb!!

    I want to touch on every avenue possible!!

  • #71754

    Joshua
    Participant

    I feel the need to state something very clearly here. For those of you with loved ones in this group, do not go to the WMS to study or do service ever! Understand this, members are told that if they pray hard enough, work hard enough, keep the feast and Passover, as well as not lose faith their families will become followers. Even with the best intentions in mind and with a desire to prove them wrong in their own setting it will look to them like the WMS was telling them the truth and you coming with them is proof of mothers truth and power. When my loved one was in she was told this exact lie! Too many family members fall for this which only serves to push the member further into the group. Don’t sabotage them by falling for this trap.

    Here’s a question that some of you might want to approach. The WMS believes that clouds mean the flesh. It’s how they justify Ahn being born instead of Christ coming back through the clouds. They even have a sermon on their website about this. In their sermon it states that Jesus came on the clouds the first time. I asked them to give me the scriptures that say this. They NEVER have! I’ve spoken with their website administration and two missionaries about these scriptures. Plenty of opportunity to produce a scripture. THEY NEVER HAVE! It’s their sermon for crying out loud. They reference the Bible as having said this yet they are unable to give me a single scripture. Just one of many things that proves that the WMS doesn’t have the “truth” they claim to have.

    #71755

    WarriorQueen
    Participant

    I feel like you’re right!! As I stated this is very real to him & other members!! Even though I’ve made it very clear I would never ever be a member it could possibly give him hope!! I’m sure while I’m there, It will be ever more clear that I’m not there to learn or to stay!! At least that’s what it should scream!!

    But, again I really appreciate your wisdom.. This is probably my last trip.. Cause I’m sure after my last one, I’m becoming less welcome anyhow!! It’s something that is seemingly imperative to me… :

    Should I let it go!?!

    The clouds sermon what is it called!?

    I was taught at first that it was because he came in the flesh the first time.. He came the same the second time so clouds has to mean flesh!! Pretty much how I remember.. Although I could barely understand the man!! So they actually teach he came on the clouds the first time!?! WOW!!!! Smh…

    #71756

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    @Warrior I agree with Josh, going to do battle with them does not work. For alot of reasons. I will give my opinion on your initial question. I honestly beleive EVERY member, past and present, has doubts. Now, WMS does an EXCELLENT job of trying to cover your thoughts and potential thoughts that doubt the doctrine. Thats why there is an answer for everything. The Wms rebuttal system reminds of the song by Shaggy, “It wasnt me” (for those who dont know singer is caught by his lady cheating various times and he always says, “It wasn’t me”)

    Convenient WMS answers;

    “Well, we couldnt tell you about that til your faith was mature enough”

    “Well, does that have anything to do with our salvation?”

    “You should study more”

    And when it comes to truth’s that are unexplainable, they just never bring them up.

    As Joshua stated, they ignored the Clouds scripturess question. As I states, when I told a Deacon about the Proverbs 8 verse referring to Wisdom speaking metaphorically, and not King Solomon, he scratched his head and said, “Um…well, just dont tell anybody about that”.

    #71757

    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Joshua is totally right.  We learned the hard way that confrontation, no matter how well planned, didn't work.  Hopefully you can come to some kind of terms with your spouse so that you can live in relative peace.  It is possible but it will take a lot of love and patience on your part.  A lot. Good luck!  I know of one family where the father is in WMSCOG and the mother not.  So far it is working for them, and has for a few years. 

    #71758

    WarriorQueen
    Participant

    Well I pray for guidance.. And Men of God guidance you gave!! If it will only bring on discouragment or hardened hearts.. I accept that it’s not something I shouldn’t go do.. But is it something I can still mention to my husband!? Like unconfrontational.. Just simply throw it out there.. Or ask!? Or is that a no go too!?! I’m fearful When this is over he will say why didn’t you try this!? Or ask that!? I just don’t want no stone unturned.. Ya know!?!

    I wish I was at peace.. I guess I’ll get there.. I feel like I child, that knows better but still goes out and learns for myself the hard way!! But I don’t want to do that.. When all this wisdom is surrounding me and I don’t have to do that, plus I’m not a child! Ahhh..le sigh!!

    Thanks guys again for everything!!

    #71759

    Mayor and Mike
    Participant

    Joshua has a point. But approach this church carefully. Don't let them create division, they might do that. If you learned most of the doctrine you would better understand why they do what they do. The cog has a lot of scriptures to back them up. I found the way they interpreted the bible interesting. But their doctrine goes deep in scripture that you could never guess what meanings they attached to the different verses. 

    Just like clouds and flesh, you'll never guess there was a connection.

    So Joshua, the cog never gave you an answer? Don't they want you to know the verses? I don't have the verses but I know someone who does. 

    Mulberry moose?

    #71760

    Mulberry Moose
    Participant

    Ah yes. Luke 21:27 states they will see the Son of Man coming in a "cloud." 

    #71761

    Mulberry Moose
    Participant

    Exodus 36:19 animal skins is supposed to have meaning also

    #71762

    Mayor and Mike
    Participant

    Huh. Interesting. Did Moses use moose hides with that?

    #71763

    Mulberry Moose
    Participant

    don't push it. 

    #71764

    Hyde
    Participant


    @WarriorQueen
    – If there was one thing I would have listened to that would have changed my mind it would be that ASH had a wife, children and then a divorce. I wish somebody would have told me that ASH had a family life of his own. That he had lived like the average human being and not like the messiah at all.

    #71765

    Hyde
    Participant

    I remember before I left WMS I was having some serious doubts for about a month. Not so much the teachings of ASH and ‘mother’, what I was doubting was my friendships with the other WMS members. After about 3 years at WMS, what really bothered me was that my friendships with ’brothers’ and ‘sisters’ had not progressed into anything at all because there were strict church rules limiting us. Firstly, members are only meant to meet-up at ‘zion’. If we did visit each other for some reason, we could only to preach from the sermon book and speak of nothing more than what ‘father and mother’ would approve of. Secondly, at ‘zion’ there was no talking about your own personal life too much because it could weaken your, or other member’s faith. In this way we weren’t allowed to care for each other’s personal lives at all. So we knew each other but only superficially. 

    Under ’zion’ rules we would shake hands and say ‘GBU!’ and laugh but it was just the same thing over and over, and no real talking. it was fake. We ‘loved’ each other by pretending to be enthusiastic when really we weren’t close friends at all because WMS does not allow for it. So, in the end, for me, the restrictions on our friendships is what really made me want to leave WMS. I don't know what it is like at other 'zions' but for what it's worth, that was my experience.

    #71766

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    The restrictions were so fake. We were invited to childrens bday parties, bbqs, all sneaking around. Grownups…having to ask the Overseer if they/we can visit a sick brother or sister. Terrible limitations put on a people by a church

    #71767

    Joshua
    Participant

    Mulberry Moose wrote:

    Ah yes. Luke 21:27 states they will see the Son of Man coming in a "cloud." 

     Yes. the Son of Man is coming this way. What I've asked is where is the scripture that says that he came this way the first time?

    #71768

    WarriorQueen
    Participant

    @Mayor.. Aren’t these verses they connected to fit their fairy tale!?! Or is there actually truth in it!?! Doesn’t it supposedly go like this, since God was born in the flesh the first time.. When it says he will come on a cloud the second time it will really happen like the first time.. Cause supposedly everything repeats it self from old testament to new!!I know I’m missing pieces..

    @Hyde.. I know what you mean.. It seems odd in the 3 years he’s been there we haven’t had them over or they haven’t invited him over.. I know it’s a long shot for me.. But why not him!! It’s sad there’s no friendships outside of zion..

    @Joshua.. Right!!!?

    #71769

    Joshua
    Participant

    Yes, everytime I've brought this up with people who were supposed to have the "answers" they would regurgitate something like, "shadow and reality" or "just like the first time it is happening again" which really doesn't answer my inquirey which is to show me where it says that Jesus came on the clouds the first time. It's their sermon after all. Supposedly this sermon was created by their mother. How can their god say that something is in Gods Word and yet not be able to give her followers the scripture and verse to help someone like me understand? It should be incredibly simple. Hey, just look up Mark 17:4 it says ______________. (For those of you knowledgeable of the Bible you'll see the obvious flaw in this last comment!) Why when they say it's in the Bible they cannot produce the location? I always get the cherry picked, round robin, follow the leader until we can confuse you into submission type of approach. Thank God it never worked on me!

    #71770

    jw03550
    Participant

    when jumping around the bible to find/prove a point begins to fail, changing the meaning of words via symbolism appears to be the next step….

    they can't see it.  my friend can't.  so I'm still there for him, waiting.

    #71771

    Mulberry Moose
    Participant

    Uh, I was having a meeting with the other meese. after our discussion we concluded that the old testament prophecies do not state Jesus came in a cloud the first time. rather the sign would be a virgin would be with child. only God the Father was in an actual cloud. 

    #71772

    Mulberry Moose
    Participant

    I could not find chapter 17 in Mark. where is it?

    #71773

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    @Mulberry I think Mark 17 was a joke. Ivr heard many pastors used the joke, “Now Brothers and Sisters…turn to Mark 17” And watch as people fumble around.

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