- Topic
The more I spend time talking to members and ex-members of the WMSCOG one thing is reviled over and over again. It seems that the initial hook placed into people when this group first reels someone in instantly creates distrust in anything outside of the group. This causes people not to do any studying outside on their own. I want to know how many people did some studies, felt something was wrong with what was being taught, and discovered outside the group what other truths there are about this group?
WMS brother wrote:
Basically persecution of Christians -continued- to be a problem for a couple hundred years. So much so, that they had to pass multiple laws to literally LEGALIZE being christian, because the nation as a whole treated them as heretical lawbreakers, reference New Covenant and ancient paintings to get an idea of how they were tortured or killed.
Yes, and we could also say that when the law finally legalized Sunday as a day off, it allowed Christians freedom from persecution for keeping their Sunday services. We should probably start another thread just for the history of Sunday worship.
When I say "Constantine abolished the Sabbath day in 321" … What I actually mean to say is that the sabbath day had -always- been getting stomped on, and this is where changing the set times and laws of God -begins-.
Then you should say that, because "Constantine abolished the Sabbath day in 321" is in accurate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea
"about 363–364 AD"
"Outlawing the keeping of the Jewish sabbath (Saturday) and encouraging rest on the (Sunday) (canon 29)"
Canon 29
"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s Day they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day."
And then it straight up did become illegal to keep the sabbath on Saturday.
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So you can read all that, or I can say "Constantine passed a law in 321 which outlawed the Sabbath" and you understand that Christs Law has been changed, and people were murdered because of it in the reign of and because of, Constantine.
Generally speaking, we try to keep it simple in order to get the most out of a bible study. We answer questions with sources like these, and it is very very good to research and get the whole story.
You can be simple and still not be inaccurate. You can simply say "the Sabbath was outlawed by the Council of Laodicea around 363."
Why doesn't the wmscog say that insead of the incorrect, "Constantine passed a law in 321 which outlawed the Sabbath"?
I'll chat about passover, and kingdoms later, respectively. I'm gettin tired and I think I've gotten plenty of gospel in today.
Please share about the 10 kindgoms and the year 538 next, since that was the subject of our conversation here most recently. Thank you.
It isn't entirely inaccurate actually it is a simplification doesn't mean inaccurate.
shimon wrote:
It isn't entirely inaccurate actually it is a simplification doesn't mean inaccurate.
A simplification should still be accurate.
I would argue it is. Constantine laid the first law in a series of laws that led to the complete illegality of Sabbath.
I would disagree. His law didn't outlaw the Sabbath.
It would be like saying WWII started in 1922 when Mussolini became Prime Minister of Italy.
or Yuri Gagarin landed on the moon in 1961.
Those events may have lead toward WWII or the moon landing, but they are inaccurate simplifications.
Maybe we should agree to disagree on this point. 🙂
How about the 10 kingdoms and the year 538?
loocpoc wrote:
But the Shabbos had never been completely removed for 7th day worship. The Jews kept it even after the disporsa!
Yes, loocpoc. And even some Christian groups have kept it through the centuries. Just because the Council of Laodicea wrote a canon against the Sabbath, doesn't mean that Sabbath observance disappeared.
loocpoc wrote:
But the Shabbos had never been completely removed for 7th day worship. The Jews kept it even after the disporsa!
making the same strawman over and over doesn't make it stop being a straw man
loocpoc wrote:
shimon wrote:
loocpoc wrote:
But the Shabbos had never been completely removed for 7th day worship. The Jews kept it even after the disporsa!
making the same strawman over and over doesn't make it stop being a straw man
But false teachings that the sabbath day was wiped away does not make it right either. Your church's doctrine is incorrect. The Gnostics have kept Saturday service.
I have heard they originally spoke out against it. (this wasn't from WMC)
They Also deny Christ so obviously from a Christian perspective they really aren't
Great thread. I remember reading it and watching how it unfolded with Simon. Interesting.
Bump
I noticed yesterday, while going through some old back and forths from the topics on this site. Renita Payno was posting when she was a member, but she now is out and posts great videos on YT debunking WMS. I wanted to ask, what was/were the big Redflag(s) that started you into researching? I will post a few of mine, in order as best I can remember;
1. Conflicting info – Early on, a deacon told me that the early church members didnt know/realize that ASH was god. Later in sermon videos, we hear of members calling ASH, “Father”while he was a pastor.
2. Watching the “behavior” of new members. In my first month, I was in a situation where I was accused of “hanging out” with another brother, outside of the church. Now in a normal church, this wouldnt be abnormal behavior, but since it didnt it raised a flag for me. I later became close to an older member who explained the secrets of the church (arranged marriages, how deacons were chosen, and who was a spy). The Overseer didnt want me “hanging” with this brother. Mind you, at the time I was 30…far from a child.
3. Scripture Misuse- When I first learned, “Secret of the forgiveness of Sins” sermon, I brought to a Deacons attention, Proverbs 8. WMS claims that Solomon is speaking, wheb it clearly says “I wisdom”. The Deacon told me, “don’t show that to anyone”.
4.Associating “Evil” to the everyday. Early on two small things stood out. Zhang, had spoken in a few sermons that “members shouldnt play video games”. The overseer would often reiterate the sentiment. This was a flag, because many older people have a disregard toward tech and gaming. This made me see Zhang as worldy for one of thr first times.
5. Leadership Errors- My last two years in WMS, I saw major flaws of leaders. This made me question, “Doesnt God see this?”. My initial overseer was removed because he was trying to come onto the female members. He was also obsessed with a sister. When he found out that sister had been secretly dating a brother, he tried to have the brother move to another Zion. The sister finally complained, and WMS tried to keep it secret. After this, we got a Korean Overseer. He was rude, and immediately starting the yelling, screaming and making snide comments to, “test” as he called it, the members. He made racial remarks, and harsh ethnic jokes. Members would say to me, “Brother overcome, Mother sent him for a reason”. I questioned then, “How could God allow leaders like this!”
UntouchableJ, I am qurious about the secrets. Can you tell me what it takes to become a deacon? I have a very zealous son that gives a lot of money. Can he become a deacon? Also what is a spy in the church? Thanks.
@momsix828 Just pm’ed you
Thanks.
@Mom Sorry I missed your last questiom. They will apoint or ask someone to watch new members. They will watch your behavior, during services, and between, to see if you are influential, negative, or a “trouble maker”. There was a woman that would watch me, she is now a Deaconess. Very early on, she would conviently be where I was. Many times we locked eyes because I knew she was watchung me. I work with Juveniles, so Im always pretty observent of my surroundings. Sometimes I would see her, before she found me, and I would just stare at her to let her know I knew, lol.
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