Cult definition

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  • #7795
    maxwellmcgregor
    Participant

    Here are the characteristics of cult that I found. I’d like to hear from those who have knowledge of wmscog which ones seem to apply to the wmscog, and why. If you think that some/all do not apply, I’d appreciate an explanation as well.

    1. Single charismatic leader.

    2. People always seeming constantly happy and enthusiastic. Especially if you discover that they have been told to act that way for the potential new recruits.

    3. Instant friends.

    4. If you are told who you can or cannot talk to or associate with.

    5. They hide what they teach.

    6. Say they are the only true group, or the best so why go anywhere else.

    7. Hyped meetings, get you to meetings rather than share with you.

    8. Experiential rather than logical.

    9. Asking for money for the next level.

    10. Some cults travel door to door during times when women are home alone. They, and this is rather sexist, think that women are easier to recruit and once they have the woman then it will be easier to snare the husband or partner.

    11. Saying that they have to make people pay for it because otherwise they will not appreciate it. This is of course a very silly reason, plenty of people are able to appreciate things which they did not pay for.

    12. They do not allow their teachings or practices to be questioned. If you question, then automatically the group assumes that something is wrong with you. It can never be the case that anything is wrong with the group’s practices or teachings. Often they will try to shut you down by accusing you of having a “bad attitude”.

    13. They will push you to obey by using guilt. They will demand complete “submission” to the group, its leaders and its teachings. They will do this by making you feel absolutely rotten about yourself. They will ridicule you and attack any weakness you might have (or invent weaknesses you might have if they can’t find any). Their goal is to break your will by causing you mental anguish.

  • #68686

    Kai TIng
    Participant

    setufree wrote:

    Kai TIng wrote:

    There are different kinds of Cult

    Political – Nazi

    Self help – Scientology

    Religious – People'e temple, KKK

    While there are different ways to identify a cult, I believe when it comes to religious cults there should be a different set of criterias. Even though I am out of the wmscog, I think the chapter on "Heresy" in the book "My Sheep Listens To My Voice" written by GP actually makes lots of sense. To Christians, what is the final authority? It should be the Bible, and not a set of man made rules.

    Really?  Interesting…  When I had read it (5 times like they asked) I found that chapter in the book to make me question WMS even more, especially the part when they accuse every single other church as heretic and claim that anyone who doesn't follow or questions them as a Pharissee. 

    My favorite quote that makes me laugh out of My sheep  is "Even though false churches call the true church "a heretic" and mock it, it cannot be heretic. Truth is truth even though it is treated as heresy."  Now, does that statement make any sense or are they just running members around in circles with that.

    Considering how Jesus was rejected and even crucified…and assuming that the reader is actually a Christian…I don't think that claim is that far off

    #68687

    jw03550
    Participant

    People's Tempel was actually a political group, Marxist at its core.

    The irony with Marxism is that Marx was kicked out of several countries.  Reason: he sought to educate the working classes that lacked "consciousness" of their social surroundings/situations.  Whether the leaders, or those with "consciousness", really had the advantage of social awareness or not, Marx was still a threat to the social order of things. 

    The stories from PT survivors are essentially the same in regards to isolating F&F – it was what Marx was against, not what he was for, in terms of "consciousness".

    Kai TIng wrote:

    Really?  Interesting…  When I had read it (5 times like they asked) I found that chapter in the book to make me question WMS even more, especially the part when they accuse every single other church as heretic and claim that anyone who doesn't follow or questions them as a Pharissee. 

    My favorite quote that makes me laugh out of My sheep  is "Even though false churches call the true church "a heretic" and mock it, it cannot be heretic. Truth is truth even though it is treated as heresy."  Now, does that statement make any sense or are they just running members around in circles with that.

    seems to make a lot of sense if the members are anchored around their group being the true one with the groups armor being that they highly discount or disregard information that doesn't come from them.  sounds like it assisted in you figuring it out but obvs it is still effective because the group is growing.  if it starts to go against them with exits then the smart money is on them changing it.  like the Marx discussion above, truth will be truth (perceived as) inside the circle, always.  get rid of those that threaten the circular logic.  perhaps your 2 paragraphs from the book is designed that way on purpose?  get those that figure it out, out, sooner rather than later.

    #68688

    setufree
    Participant

    jw03550 wrote:

    People's Tempel was actually a political group, Marxist at its core.

    The irony with Marxism is that Marx was kicked out of several countries.  Reason: he sought to educate the working classes that lacked "consciousness" of their social surroundings/situations.  Whether the leaders, or those with "consciousness", really had the advantage of social awareness or not, Marx was still a threat to the social order of things. 

    The stories from PT survivors are essentially the same in regards to isolating F&F – it was what Marx was against, not what he was for, in terms of "consciousness".

    Kai TIng wrote:

    Really?  Interesting…  When I had read it (5 times like they asked) I found that chapter in the book to make me question WMS even more, especially the part when they accuse every single other church as heretic and claim that anyone who doesn't follow or questions them as a Pharissee. 

    My favorite quote that makes me laugh out of My sheep  is "Even though false churches call the true church "a heretic" and mock it, it cannot be heretic. Truth is truth even though it is treated as heresy."  Now, does that statement make any sense or are they just running members around in circles with that.

    seems to make a lot of sense if the members are anchored around their group being the true one with the groups armor being that they highly discount or disregard information that doesn't come from them.  sounds like it assisted in you figuring it out but obvs it is still effective because the group is growing.  if it starts to go against them with exits then the smart money is on them changing it.  like the Marx discussion above, truth will be truth (perceived as) inside the circle, always.  get rid of those that threaten the circular logic.  perhaps your 2 paragraphs from the book is designed that way on purpose?  get those that figure it out, out, sooner rather than later.

    Jw I never thought of it that way.  In fact it does make sense.  I probably wouldn't have been much of a follower/recruiter( and a possible threat) for them since I started to question and figure it out after the first book and that chapter. Very logical, thanks for the input.

    #68689

    jw03550
    Participant

    anyone ever get their phones taken and/or phone privileges suspended while in this group?

    #68690

    Hong Gil-dong
    Participant

    jw03550 wrote:

    anyone ever get their phones taken and/or phone privileges suspended while in this group?

    They took my shoes once, does that count?

    #68691

    setufree
    Participant

    Yes.

    I’m not going to get too detailed because I’d still like to remain anonymous until the time is right. I’ve had my phone “taken” and looked at by a leader. I also heard from others that they were spoken to about either being on their phone too much (rebuke) or using their phone as a “tool to spy”. They were paranoid af at my former church.

    #68692

    Kai TIng
    Participant

    Some time ago Korean missionaries came to my zion for a week long education program on the gospel and there was one section on how to counter argue those who oppose the church, (something like the website http://www.thetruewmscog.com/) During that session everyone is told to off their phones and put it in the center walkway (between the brothers and sisters section). I remember they were quite vigilant in checking that everyone has done as they are told before they commenced the counter argument teachings. 

    After the session I asked around why they did that, I got answers like "to protect copyright", "to make sure we concentrate", "so that people will not spy and steal information", "hackers may be listening in", etc

    #68693

    Joshua
    Participant

    Talk about parinoia! I've asked this before, If a person or a group had truth that was capable of saving everyone and because it's the truth it would be undisputable, why would they try to hide it or keep it to themselves? Seem like this kind of person or group really hates most of the people on the planet.

    #68694

    jw03550
    Participant

    Thank you, all, for the replies.

    hgd is interesting.  the other 3 all have in common a direction of information pointing centrifugally – ie, inward.  I would say, Joshua, that its not about paranoia, its about the direction of information flow.  Joshua you use good logic but when all answers are needed to point inward to insulate against other opinions….

    it seems to be an effective system.

    #68695

    MountainMom
    Participant

    Joshua wrote:

    Talk about parinoia! I've asked this before, If a person or a group had truth that was capable of saving everyone and because it's the truth it would be undisputable, why would they try to hide it or keep it to themselves? Seem like this kind of person or group really hates most of the people on the planet.

     You are right, Joshua, it is complete paranoia.  They are so secretive with everything.  They have to be or it would all fall apart when held up to the light of day.  They don't even trust their own members.  Taking phones away is another extreme example of control.  Why couldn't they just tell them not to have their phones on?  Even at high schools kids can keep their phones as long as they abide the rule not to use them during class.  Are these adults less mature and trustworthy than high school teens?  I guess the Wms thinks so.

    #68696

    jw03550
    Participant

    In the case of categorical vs a spectrum of influence,

    Your Honor,

    I rest my case:

    http://www.icsahome.com/articles/what-is-a-cult-definitional-preface

    #68697

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    I’d bet that they start using cell phone dampeners (small boxes that block cell signals…used in some jails, movie theatres etc.) so members can’t use phones. I spoke to another former member the other day….and he spoke to someone who is still in, and he was told that his Zion asked for Social Security numbers. If this is true, things are getting worse

    #68698

    MountainMom
    Participant

    UntouchableJ wrote:

    I'd bet that they start using cell phone dampeners (small boxes that block cell signals…used in some jails, movie theatres etc.) so members can't use phones. I spoke to another former member the other day….and he spoke to someone who is still in, and he was told that his Zion asked for Social Security numbers. If this is true, things are getting worse

     Wow.  Social Security numbers?  If they are doing that then I wonder if they are asking for bank account numbers as well.  I really hope members are not duped into doing this.  But I have to assume that they will be if it becomes a required practice in the wms. 

    Maybe this extreme measure will open some members eyes as to the complete control this group has over their lives.

    #68699

    setufree
    Participant

    UntouchableJ wrote:

    I'd bet that they start using cell phone dampeners (small boxes that block cell signals…used in some jails, movie theatres etc.) so members can't use phones. I spoke to another former member the other day….and he spoke to someone who is still in, and he was told that his Zion asked for Social Security numbers. If this is true, things are getting worse

    That wouldn't surprise me because they always acted paranoid and suspicious imo.  With all the money they spent on high tech security systems and cameras everywhere.  I have also heard from a "current member" about personal info like that including life insurance inquiries.  Which is funny because she's kinda young for that, unmarried and no children.

    #68700

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    Yeah, they may start asking for W-2 forms. And when members tithes and offerings don’t stay accurate they will start mentioning it in services

    #68701

    jw03550
    Participant

    MountainMom wrote:

    Of course, I disagree that the "categorical nature" is naive or dangerous.

    bumping this old debate, due to a similar thread that has popped up.

    Why categorical is naive dangerous (not sure I had enough info at the time to address this question):  because when the member sees "charismatic leader", and since Mother is not charismatic, then the conclusion is simple:  I'm not in a "cult". 

    etc, from point to point.

    …because people in groups like these typically don't play devil's advocate for their selves – they seek to confirm what they're not, and a categorical listing serves nothing but to lock them in.

    GP, on the other hand, is charismatic….about how and why members should keep Satan away.

    #68702

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    A good Friend of mine who was in at the same time in our branch church, told ua how the Overseer went through a Male members phone when he left it on the table. The member was a amateur barber and used to cut his friends hair for free. The Overseer saw a text from a friend that said, “Hey, I need a cut”. The overseer said, in front of all the other male members “Bredder…a Cut? Are you using drufs bredder?” Thinking he was referring to cocaine.

    #68703

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    The excuse was, that the Overseer thought it was his phone. When I was there varying overseers had different opinions on phone usage. One overseer hated phones, the other two didn’t mind, especially since he would use his during fragrance, and answer calls.

    #68704

    jw03550
    Participant

    UTJ brings up reporting/spying/watching….this should be added to the list.  Groups (seeking control) want to keep their members in line.  Usually it is done with good intentions at the moment it is taught/learned, but the hidden aspect is to keep people playing by the group's rules – keeping people in line with accepted behavior.  and that, I would say, leaves little time for critical thinking or questioning.

    #68705

    UntouchableJ
    Participant

    @Jw I agree. Although Americans have varying subcultures etc, I have seen many things considered “Foolish”, by Koreans just to keep the WMS practices as the dominant culture. And of course when your new, your differences are ignored. When your there a while, and don’t change then its addressed.

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