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This comment was originally posted by shimon on The Worldwide Church Of God "Restored" the Passover Before Ahn Sahng-Hong and has been moved here for further discussion:
I really see very little in common and nothing that would affect the validity of the WMSCOG likewise she doesn't seem to talk about how WWCOG keeps the feasts and if you notice they have a different feast calendar as well.
But as for Passover which is the point of this post. The name alone is not enough.
Hi shimon
There are many churches which say they keep the Passover, but since you will probably disagree and say it is not a correct Passover, please give a list of what makes a correct Passover. How can you distinguish which is the correct keeping of the Passover?
Other churches also observe the other feasts of the year. How do you know which calendar is correct? Can you tell me how the wmscog establishes their calendar? How can we know it is correct and the others are wrong? What do they say is the correct method for setting up the sacred calendar? (Please don't just say that they know the method and you trust them. How can you verify which calendar is right unless you know how they set up the calendars?)
For one thing, how can you know the wmscog is setting the calendar correctly when sometimes they have kept the 7th month feasts in the 8th month–one month late? Why would they do that? (Here are more details)
My point wasn't about whether it is correct or not it was about whether it was the same or not which is what the article implies.
shimon wrote:
My point wasn't about whether it is correct or not it was about whether it was the same or not which is what the article implies.
When you say that it is not the same, you imply that it is not correct. When I have brought it up with other members, they tell me that these other churches that keep Passover are really not because there is something different which makes it incorrect, though they did not specify what was exactly was different or what would consititute a 'proper' observance. Would you try my questions please?
Well for one thing WMSCOG Passover is the footwashing Ceremony based on John 13 and Eating the flesh and blood through the bread and wine based on Matthew 26, Luke 22 etc. on the 14th day of the first month based on Leviticus 23, Exodus 12 etc.
WWCOG doesn't consider the Bread and Wine/Flesh and Blood the Passover according to their own website so I would assume they keep the Old Covenant Passover.
The Calendar is based upon the New Moon with the first month being the month of the Abib which is a ripening stage of barley. I even have Nehemiah Gordon on my facebook likes and he posts about the Abib every year and it was found in the month in which we held Passover this year 5 April 2012, the 14th day after the New Moon March 22 2012
as for 8th Month I cannot speak of something I have not seen if I can find my 2010 calendar I will take a look and get back.
So if a church had (1) a footwashing ceremony, (2) ate the bread and wine (flesh and blood), and (3) did this on the evening of the 14th day of the first month, then that is all that is required to satisfy "keeping the Passover"?
The Calendar is based upon the New Moon with the first month being the month of the Abib which is a ripening stage of barley. I even have Nehemiah Gordon on my facebook likes and he posts about the Abib every year and it was found in the month in which we held Passover this year 5 April 2012, the 14th day after the New Moon March 22 2012
Waiting for the ripened barley before declaring the first month is how the Karaite Jews set their calendar. In that case, you would not have your date for Passover until it's nearly time for Passover. However, I remember a member showing me her calendar one year in January (or could have been December), and I saw another copy of the year's feast dates in February, so how do they have the calendar available that early if they are waiting for the ripened barley? (When did you receive your calendar for the year?)
So that cannot be how the wmscog sets the start of their calendar. How do they set the first month?
Yes, according to the Bible the month should start with the new moon, but how does the wmscog calculate the new moon? Astronomically, I assume, instead of by observation (which is how it would have been done in ancient times and how the Karaite Jews do it now), but from Jerusalem or South Korea, or…? And what time of day does it have to be before the new moon counts for the following day? I've been looking for a pattern, but I haven't found anything consistent.
as for 8th Month I cannot speak of something I have not seen if I can find my 2010 calendar I will take a look and get back.
Don't worry if you can't find it. The wmscog has most of the feast celebrations since 2003 archived here:http://english.watv.org/news/list.asp?menu=I
I've put them together into a chart for easier examining here: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1MsoweMAuX9TFiNpzg6Oi2d1CERWFyrqwHp183-H_G9U
(But you don't have to take my word for it. You can double check all the dates yourself. Notice the 8th month problem happened in 2005, 2008, and 2010.)
Thanks for your help with this. It has puzzled me for a long time now.
The problem is the karaites start their month by the day after the day of the new moon. I cannot say how its calculated when the Aviv is but as the day day starts at sun up.it seems new mon before sun up
shimon wrote:
The problem is the karaites start their month by the day after the day of the new moon. I cannot say how its calculated when the Aviv is but as the day day starts at sun up.it seems new mon before sun up
Okay let me put it a better way to be more clear.
New Moon March 22 WMSCOG puts 1/1 on March 23 Karaites on March 24
I do not know how the WMSCOG calculates first month Aviv, theoretically Mother could know when Aviv will be being God and all (not that you believe that) likewise maybe there is a spiritual meaning behind aviv.
But I do know we do not use the Pharisee calculated calendar offset to the new moon because we don't have the 13th month every time they do.
You also asked about when the New Moon must fall, I would just guess before sun up.
The Karaite wait for the new sliver of the moon to be physically oberserved in the sky. That's why their days are a bit different and why they don't have any calendar more than a month ahead of time. (I think that would be pretty difficult, but they say that is the way it was done in Old Testament times, and therefore the way it should be done even now.)
You are guessing about how the wmscog sets up the sacred calendar, just like I have tried to guess. Here's my point to these questions about the calendar:
We assume they (as in Mr. Kim and Ms. Zahng and other top leaders) must have a method even if they haven't taught it to their members, right? Why do they not teach their method, share what they believe is the proper method to set up the sacred calendar? They say that other churches do not have the correct calendar, but they won't say what makes a correct calendar. Why? To me, that shows a lack of willingness to be examined, and that shows a fear that they will be shown wrong. The truth has nothing to fear from examination.
If keeping the exact dates of the feasts is so important for your salvation (as the wmscog teaches), shouldn't they be able to prove they have the right dates, and how can they be trusted with those 8th month mistakes? That's a big problem for me–it shows they want blind trust they haven't earned.
Scripture says New Moon not sliver but I still as a former Jew have greater respect for Karaite interpretation over Rabbinical and I could see how they could start it there, especially when they have the opposing conception of day starting at night which is debated by many it's not just a WMSCOG vs the world debate.
Jesus spoke against oral law modern Rabbinical Judaism is a direct descendent of Phariseeism and it even takes great pride in that.
Oral law is a violation of Deut 4:1-2
and Karaites also have Tanakh.
The Oral law contradicts the law so it cannot be from God.
Jesus is also the one who spoke against it first.
To determin how to keep the Sabbath you use scripture nothing more nothing less.
Sadducees were sola-scriptura this is true. Sola scriptura may not always lead to correct conclusions but the oral law never will.
Under the Old Covenant yes. We, Christians not you of course, must follow the regulations given by Jesus though.
If you see how he kept Sabbath that his examples for us to follow, healing (not necessarily physically also spiritualy), going to listen to the word of God (both in the sense that Jesus is the Word Flesh and the fact he gave sermon and read from the scriptures),
Basically if you watch his examples he put no prohibition on the Sabbath he only demonstrated blessings of healing physical and spiritual by setting the day aside to go to him.
Shimon,
The WMSCOG's claims about the Sabbath are completely wrong.
- Constantine did not abolish the Sabbath. https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/archives/did-constantine-abolish-the-sabbath/
- The Apostle Paul did not keep the Sabbath. You have to do the math. https://www.examiningthewmscog.com/?p=594
Judaism isn’t even 5000 years old
From creation not from Moses
What? That's it? Just argument? No real meat to the subject? Darn.
How do you give a deep.response to a shallow statement.
Not sure what you mean.
loocpoc wrote:
He kept the sabbath as most jews have kept the sabbath for 5000 years. We rested, spent time with family and went to services. Sabbath is a day of rest. Yet we are allowed to break the law (even in the time of Yeshua) to heal the sick or injured. There has always been a right to save a person even if it means to break the laws of the sabbath. A human life is more important than the law.
Let's forget Judaisms age and I will adress the rest of your comment
I assume you are addressing what the talmud refers to as Pikuach nefesh. This is only valid when ones life is in danger not just injured or sick. Jesus's healing was in cases when life was not truly in danger in most cases the problems were around from birth.
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